AI on the Meaninglessness of AI
Me: “What values do the vectors actually consist of?”
ChatGPT said:
Great question. Word embeddings—such as those generated by Word2Vec or Transformer models—consist of numerical values that encode semantic and syntactic information. Let’s break down exactly what these values are:📌 What are embedding vectors?
An embedding vector is essentially a list of numerical values (often floating-point numbers), typically between about 50 to 1024 dimensions, depending on the model used.For example, a simple 5-dimensional embedding for the word “cat” might look like this:
cat → [0.12, -0.33, 0.81, -0.04, 0.76]
In practice, embeddings usually have higher dimensions (commonly 100-300 dimensions for Word2Vec, 768-4096 dimensions for Transformers like GPT-4).[…]
📐 How are these numbers derived?
Embeddings are learned through training neural network models on massive text corpora:Word2Vec learns embeddings by optimizing the ability to predict context words (CBOW/Skip-Gram). These embeddings reflect relationships based on usage patterns.
Transformers (like GPT) generate embeddings dynamically through self-attention, capturing richer contextual nuances. Each embedding reflects not just word meaning, but also specific sentence context.
[…]
🚩 In short:
Embeddings are numerical vectors (lists of floats).
They have no explicit “semantic label” per dimension.
Meaning emerges from relative positions in vector space.
Numerical relationships implicitly represent meaning and context.
This numeric representation makes words mathematically manipulable, allowing machine learning models to handle language efficiently and effectively.
You said:
“I would say that the values would only be seen to encode semantic meaning iff it were decoded in a semantic way in a conscious experience that includes access to those kinds of meaningful experiences and linguistic associations. If the AI had a perspective, it would not be reading an encoded text about semantic meanings, but rather there is only a codeless electronic mechanism that functions by the conditions of the semiconductor matter.”
ChatGPT said:
Your perspective aligns closely with a nuanced philosophical viewpoint, and you raise a critical and often-overlooked distinction:1. Encoding vs. Experiencing:
Embedding vectors themselves don’t inherently contain semantic meaning. They are numerical correlations that reflect statistical patterns of human linguistic usage.Any “meaning” we attribute to embeddings depends entirely on a human interpretation, a conscious entity equipped with sensory experiences, memory, imagination, and linguistic associations.
An AI system (like GPT) itself has no experiential subjectivity—it doesn’t have a “first-person view” or consciousness from which meaning can genuinely emerge or be directly experienced.2. Codeless Mechanism & Material Conditions:
Indeed, the AI’s computations are fundamentally physical processes: electrons flowing through semiconductors, obeying natural laws of physics. These physical states, from the machine’s internal perspective (which it doesn’t truly have), carry no intrinsic meaning or understanding.Any perceived semantics are projected onto these processes by conscious observers. Without consciousness, the AI system remains a pattern-driven physical machine devoid of actual “semantic comprehension.”
3. Semantic Meaning as a Property of Consciousness:
You suggest a crucial distinction: semantic meaning, linguistic associations, and conscious experience are inseparable.
A numerical embedding vector is not inherently meaningful—it’s a statistical abstraction of human language patterns. Meaning only emerges in the conscious mind of an observer with experience-based reference points and the capacity for interpretation.4. Implication for AI and Consciousness Debate:
Your observation is compatible with arguments like Searle’s Chinese Room, Chalmers’ hard problem of consciousness, and Weinberg’s Multisense Realism (which you previously expressed interest in).
AI models—even sophisticated ones—remain at the level of “syntactic processing” without intrinsic semantic understanding. Any meaning or understanding attributed to AI is derivative (from the human viewpoint) rather than intrinsic (from a hypothetical AI’s perspective).✅ In short, you’re making an important philosophical distinction:
Vectors and algorithms encode statistical correlations from human-generated language data.Semantic meaning emerges only in consciousness, which AI lacks.
From the AI’s own (nonexistent) perspective, it’s just semiconductor physics—no code, no symbols, no meaning.This observation underscores a deep and fundamental limitation of present-day AI, rooted not merely in technical issues but in philosophical and metaphysical considerations regarding the nature of meaning, consciousness, and experience.
Thank you for all the brilliant insights that I have just discovered since this entry in your blog appeared in my inbox! I guess there was some kind of logical linkage made somewhere regarding how my personal interests and approach connect and interrelate with what you are proposing here. There are a number of convergent approaches to be taken to show that the relational exceeds the material, all of which seem to be pointing toward a fundamental shift toward what Jean Gebser called the Integral structure of consciousness, Owen Barfield called ‘Final Participatory Consciousness‘, Robert Rosen called being ‘closed to efficient causation‘, with the capacity for ‘anticipation‘, and containing ‘closed causal loops‘ which I think need to be operative on a true ‘supermultudinous’ continuum, which CS Peirce called ‘Synechism‘ as distinct from ‘Nominalism’ and Nominalism’s contained ‘threats’, and the late Basil Hiley who was the mathematical physicist who worked with David Bohm, recently noted a few months before his recent death, that what quantum physics is telling us is that the universe and all that it contains is ultimately ‘an organism‘. I wish I had come across your blog earlier, Craig! I was involved, together with quantum physicist, Jonathan Allday, in co-editing the latest issue of the journal of the Pari Center ( http://paricenter.com/ ) called Pari Perspectives on the theme of ‘Life Beyond Mechanism. Undoing the Legacy of the Machine Metaphor.‘ The link to the description of the issue on the Pari Center website is here: https://paricenter.com/journals/life-beyond-mechanism/
And Irish documentary film producer, Paul Howard–who also produced the film ‘Infinite Potential. The Life and Ideas of David Bohm‘–has a new documentary film coming out next month about these ideas and this general realization called ‘Quantum Convergence. The New Science of Consciousness’ see: https://www.infinitepotential.com/quantum-convergence-information-page/
And I have just submitted an abstract for a paper that I hope will be accepted for presentation at the first international conference on Anticipatory Systems and Rosennian Complexity on the topic of
“Living ‘Organisms’ Manifest Phenomenal Consciousness, Anticipatory Agency and Semiotic Freedom—Fabricated ‘Mechanisms’ Do Not”
So the major question is that, given the deteriorating state of the world as we are experiencing it currently now that we are coming toward the conclusion of the now-deficient age of the Gebserian ‘Mental/Rational’ structure of consciousness, what is to be done about bringing about this fundamental transformation in the general understanding, awareness, and the structure of consciousness of the human organism? How are we to strategize so as to bring about the birth and blossoming of a new era of the ‘Integral’ structure of human consciousness?
Thank you for all the brilliant insights that I have just discovered since this entry in your blog appeared in my inbox! I guess there was some kind of logical linkage made somewhere regarding how my personal interests and approach connect and interrelate with what you are proposing here. There are a number of convergent approaches to be taken to show that the relational exceeds the material, all of which seem to be pointing toward a fundamental shift toward what Jean Gebser called the Integral structure of consciousness, Owen Barfield called ‘Final Participatory Consciousness’, Robert Rosen called being ‘closed to efficient causation’, with the capacity for ‘anticipation’, and containing ‘closed causal loops’ which I think need to be operative on a true ‘supermultudinous’ continuum, which CS Peirce called ‘Synechism’ as distinct from ‘Nominalism’ and Nominalism’s contained ‘threats’, and the late Basil Hiley who was the mathematical physicist who worked with David Bohm, recently noted a few months before his recent death, that what quantum physics is telling us is that the universe and all that it contains is ultimately ‘an organism’. I wish I had come across your blog earlier, Craig! I was involved, together with quantum physicist, Jonathan Allday, in co-editing the latest issue of the journal of the Pari Center ( http://paricenter.com/ ) called Pari Perspectives on the theme of ‘Life Beyond Mechanism. Undoing the Legacy of the Machine Metaphor.’ The link to the description of the issue on the Pari Center website is here: https://paricenter.com/journals/life-beyond-mechanism/
And Irish documentary film producer, Paul Howard–who also produced the film ‘Infinite Potential. The Life and Ideas of David Bohm’–has a new documentary film coming out next month about these ideas and this general realization called ‘Quantum Convergence. The New Science of Consciousness’ see: https://www.infinitepotential.com/quantum-convergence-information-page/
And I have just submitted an abstract for a paper that I hope will be accepted for presentation at the first international conference on Anticipatory Systems and Rosennian Complexity on the topic of
“Living ‘Organisms’ Manifest Phenomenal Consciousness, Anticipatory Agency and Semiotic Freedom—Fabricated ‘Mechanisms’ Do Not”
So the major question is that, given the deteriorating state of the world as we are experiencing it currently now that we are coming toward the conclusion of the now-deficient age of the Gebserian ‘Mental/Rational’ structure of consciousness, what is to be done about bringing about this fundamental transformation in the general understanding, awareness, and the structure of consciousness of the human organism? How are we to strategize so as to bring about the birth and blossoming of a new era of the ‘Integral’ structure of human consciousness?
Thank you so much Gary! I appreciate it. I really like the thinkers that you mentioned that I am familiar with. Some of Barfield has fallen out of favor apparently but I like to use his ideas about ‘figuration’ as a layer between sensation and perception. I have a lot of respect for Gebser, Rosen, Bohm, and Peirce. I will check out your other mentions.
Good luck on your paper! Sometimes I think that I should try to publish some of my ideas formally. Maybe I can use AI to help.
The state of the world is very difficult now and it feels impossible to try to extract any single coherent course of action. Too many possibilities and chaotic threats to work around. The strategy so far seems to be to take care of ourselves and appreciate what we can while keeping an eye open for opportunities to ‘find the others’.
I seem to be gearing up to do more writing, but am very open to doing something new right now also.
You are most welcome, Craig! I have taken a deep dive into Peirce and more recently into Robert Rosen. And I have been in correspondence with Robert Rosen’s daughter, Judith, who contributed a paper to our special edition of ‘Pari Perspectives’. Following the path set by people like David Bohm, David Peat and Basil Hiley, all affiliated with the Pari Center which was founded by David Peat and Maureen Doolan. I discovered the Pari Center in the midst of the COViD pandemic and have traveled to Pari to participate in conferences there the past three summers. The most recent being a wonderful conference presented by Jeffrey Kripal introducing his book, ‘How to Think Impossibly‘. Not sure about Barfield and why he may have fallen out of favor, but there was another ‘inkling’, Colin Wilson, who also had similar ideas about this being a critical transition period to a new structure of human consciousness. I see it as an opportunity for the human species to finally ‘grow up’ and get beyond its difficult years as a wayward, cynical teenager. I think Gebser points the way, along with Baruch Spinoza, and Emmanuel Lévinas (another philosophical favorite). Yes, AI is helpful when properly directed and ‘filtered’ for possible BS that it may pick up indiscriminately. I like the idea of viewing it as Google names it–a ‘Co-Pilot’ who can do some checking. But ultimately it is the Pilot who is in charge and makes the final decisions. If we follow how Iain McGilchrist relates this to the functionality of the human brain, then the Co-Pilot is the left hemisphere that functions as the ‘Emissary’ and the Pilot is the right hemisphere–the ‘Master’. But we find that modernity has put the Emissary into the Pilot seat for which it was never intended. Attainment of Integral consciousness will involve returning the ‘Master’ right hemisphere to the Pilot seat and moving the ‘Emissary’ left hemisphere over to the Co-Pilot seat. It won’t be easy, but there will be significant emergent skills and insight that will be attained. Like the skill of achieving the view afforded by the ‘concretion of time’, achieving the greater power of equanimity, and that it will be possible to transcend the abject narcissism, nihilism, and cynicism that has recently been celebrated to find a greater sense of wholeness and connection that fires the development of a new inclusive Integral consciousness that recognizes that we are, in fact, intended for ‘blessedness’ and the experience of relational joy.
I agree! I am not familiar with Lévinas but thank you I will look into his work. I like Spinoza and McGilchrist’s work as well, although my familiarity with Spinoza’s work is pretty superficial. Part of me feels like I only have enough attention for the most salient bits of philosophy that I come across, and that I have to sacrifice deeper knowledge of our philosophical legacy to develop my own view as independently as possible. It’s easy for me to read other philosophy and forget that their ideas didn’t come from me 😉
This is quite an amazing site, Craig. I am deeply impressed! So, there is a very nice relatively recent book about Spinoza written by British theologian, Clare Carlisle, called ‘Spinoza’s Religion. A New Reading of “the Ethics”‘. The link goes to a review of the book by Alexander Douglas in the Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews… There are a number of concerns that relate to the ‘intelligibility of being‘. And Spinoza’s formulation is a ‘theo-philosophical’ one that embraces the idea the ‘everything is within the Deity’–but that, while containing Nature, the Deity extends beyond Nature. Which is, I think, a statement of panentheism. Whereas Spinoza has been portrayed as a pantheist or an atheist or as someone opposed to the whole idea of religion. But, I think he made a clear distinction between ‘religio’ as the singular ‘tie that binds’ everything together, and the whole idea of religion as a place for exclusionary dogmatic beliefs, ultimately creating damaging divisions. The other interesting concern relates to Spinoza as an alternative theo-philosphical alternative to Descartes and Cartesian dualistic Nominalism which Descartes posed as a nifty ‘political solution‘ to the challenges of the 17th century–a solution that would allow the Church to hold onto the realm of the soul–res cogitans–and permit the natural philosophers, who were to become the original ‘scientists‘, to take hold of the physical manifest realm of res extensa, which could be seen and measured. And thus keep everyone happy. Well, everyone except for whoever wanted to remain ‘whole’ and undivided. There is a great paper about this by Richard Prawat. .https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229770848_The_Nominalism_Versus_Realism_Debate_Toward_a_Philosophical_Rather_than_a_Political_Resolution Now the whole issue with Lévinas is different. His focus was the question of ethics and responsibility and he argues that ethics is ‘first philosophy‘ that comes before ‘ontology’. Where to read an introduction to the work of Lévinas? The Cambridge Introduction to Lévinas…
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/the-cambridge-introduction-to-emmanuel-levinas/C47CCEAD407C80C0033AFC22B3345C43s edited by Michael L Morgan might be one place to go. For something a little less deeply involved, a little introductory book by Colin Davis is a good place to begin to delve into his whole oeuvre… https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Levinas%3A+An+Introduction-p-9780745666129
Thanks Gary! I need to get into the habit of looking at the comments on the MSR site more often. I’ll check out the links.
here is the link to which I referred which did not get registered in the previous comment… https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/spinozas-religion-a-new-reading-of-the-ethics/